tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post8250977523971271728..comments2024-03-07T10:48:12.443-05:00Comments on freecounterpoint: Covering up for Uncle JoeMr roThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-45665118347637285092012-09-13T10:11:01.944-04:002012-09-13T10:11:01.944-04:00If the moral question was not relevant, there woul...<i>If the moral question was not relevant, there would have been no need to lie.</i><br /><br />Obviously, the need to lie was there because back then, US citizens required that the government act morally. That Xanadu has been lost over the years nd has been replaced by PC and other lies.<br /><br /><i>Dept. of State, and its friends in the White House, have been preparing for a more permanent Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-60104733932179001672012-09-12T22:04:35.886-04:002012-09-12T22:04:35.886-04:00Of course Herr Rott chooses to ignore the very imp...Of course Herr Rott chooses to ignore the very important aspect that it was much more than "rational policy" in a time of war. It was also the action of the American Left to prepare for a more permanent alliance with the Soviets...just as our current Dept. of State, and its friends in the White House, have been preparing for a more permanent alliance with Islam.Arelcao Akleoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05804389181882366153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-1694364915005024922012-09-12T22:01:49.789-04:002012-09-12T22:01:49.789-04:00Nixon in Mao's China wasn't accompanied by...Nixon in Mao's China wasn't accompanied by our lying about the killings under Mao. Nor did Mao decide the opening move wasn't useful just because we didn't lie about what he was about.<br /><br /> If you want "rational policy" to undergird an alliance of convenience, then it has a rationale that doesn't need a pretense as to the moral quality of that erstwhile allyArelcao Akleoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05804389181882366153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-7273985129243326302012-09-12T19:40:27.597-04:002012-09-12T19:40:27.597-04:00I'm talking about rational policy and nothing ...I'm talking about rational policy and nothing about morality.<br />What's the frequency, Kenneth?<br /><br />Remember Nixon in Mao's China?Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-4867106515051966492012-09-12T18:07:28.206-04:002012-09-12T18:07:28.206-04:00I'm afraid you're losing your moral bearin...I'm afraid you're losing your moral bearings, Mr Rot. It's sad. Tecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-24176021923451560952012-09-12T17:18:26.582-04:002012-09-12T17:18:26.582-04:00It is utterly rational to keep barbaric allies on ...It is utterly rational to keep barbaric allies on board.<br />Remember Nixon in China?<br />Do you think he was uninformed about the gigantic prison camp that was?<br />I think he and Kissinger knew it all the time but rightly didn't give a shit about the Katyn writ a thousand times larger, because the USSR was then a serious threat to us.<br /><br />Bottom line is that it's us that countMr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-43968209358341624082012-09-12T08:34:47.822-04:002012-09-12T08:34:47.822-04:00Hi, Leverkühn,
Yes, this is probably the only way...Hi, Leverkühn,<br /><br />Yes, this is probably the only way to put all this mess in any kind of plausible framework -- as an avatar of Realpolitik. It doesn't make it any more palatable -- not to the ones that were left handling the shitty end of the stick -- but at least it has the veneer of rationality, and one can debate the historical record starting from there. <br />Tecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-10984348252210851822012-09-12T02:13:34.896-04:002012-09-12T02:13:34.896-04:00I'm not sure if this speaks to the main point ...I'm not sure if this speaks to the main point of your post, but let me add my two cents: There was more than just a sliver of a reason to cover up for the Soviets in 1943. Wouldn't the entire public motive for fighting, at least in the US, evaporate given the apparent moral indistinguishability between the Nazis and the Soviets ? As for the unstated motives --- in 1943 (and indeed up A. Leverkuhnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18371907248087268827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-18006308995917702722012-09-11T20:38:11.403-04:002012-09-11T20:38:11.403-04:00(5) To continue: even if there was a sliver of r...<br />(5) To continue: even if there was a sliver of reason to cover up for the Soviets in 1943, by the time of Yalta (in 1945), all those excuses had evaporated. But of course, Mr Rot would not concede even that, and refuses to entertain the possibility that FDR and Churchill could have brought it up with Stalin at Yalta, when discussing the future of Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe. Tecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-24952062979641134962012-09-11T20:38:06.214-04:002012-09-11T20:38:06.214-04:00In that avalanche of sophistries, I missed this li...In that avalanche of sophistries, I missed this little Rotter gem:<br /><i><br />I wouldn't excuse any murder, duh. But keeping secrets in time of war is necessary, and so obviously excusable, Tecs Assange.<br />That was the question, keeping secrets, not mass murder which you're inexplicably talking about.<br /></i><br /><b>That</b> was the question? Boy, you still show a complete lack Tecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-26834948733950439122012-09-11T02:14:04.028-04:002012-09-11T02:14:04.028-04:00Me: We could have marched to Berlin even if Stalin...Me: We could have marched to Berlin even if Stalin had stopped in Poland (but why would he stop, he was on a roll, and hell bent on grabbing as much land as he could). <br /><br />You: Apparently, he wasn't or he would've done just that. Pepe would certainly blush at writing two contradictory sentences consecutively.<br /><br />The above sentence makes no sense to me. What was Stalin notTecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-54606432500472062122012-09-11T01:55:24.334-04:002012-09-11T01:55:24.334-04:00Was Hitler worse than Stalin? No, not in numbers k...Was Hitler worse than Stalin? No, not in numbers killed.<br />What pure irrelevance. The question at that time was "Is Hitler or Stalin, to us, in the near future, the greater threat?" The 'number killed' distraction is about as useful to the discussion here as the question, 'Who killed more, Hitler or Coanda?'<br />The answer to the relevant question is that obviously Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-56581573503487335222012-09-11T01:48:08.451-04:002012-09-11T01:48:08.451-04:00We could have marched to Berlin even if Stalin had...<i>We could have marched to Berlin even if Stalin had stopped in Poland (but why would he stop, he was on a roll, and hell bent on grabbing as much land as he could).</i> Apparently, he wasn't or he would've done just that. Pepe would certainly blush at writing two contradictory sentences consecutively.Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-59599085510835372122012-09-11T01:32:29.275-04:002012-09-11T01:32:29.275-04:00Me: There was absolutely no reason, either moral,...Me: <i>There was absolutely no reason, either moral, or diplomatic, or military, or geopolitical to do that. [...] there were perhaps some extenuating circumstances at the time -- like the imperative to win the war against the Axis powers.</i><br /><br />Mr Rot: <i> "perhaps" is the best word you've typed tonight. Yes, perhaps the Nazis were bad.</i><br /><br />Even Pepe on a badTecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-32866388758813203822012-09-10T22:32:28.328-04:002012-09-10T22:32:28.328-04:00"This cover-up was a noble lie at the time&qu...<br />"This cover-up was a noble lie at the time"<br /><br />There was nothing noble about it. Just a cynical lie.<br /><br />Was Hitler worse than Stalin? No, not in numbers killed. Not in rate of killing. Is it worse to kill the "race enemy" rather than the "class enemy"? How so? The Evil on both the National Socialist and International Socialist camps was Arelcao Akleoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05804389181882366153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-38108304834467964662012-09-10T21:23:41.162-04:002012-09-10T21:23:41.162-04:00"perhaps" is the best word you've ty..."perhaps" is the best word you've typed tonight.<br /><br />Yes, perhaps the Nazis were bad.Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-59603793315281643232012-09-10T21:21:01.351-04:002012-09-10T21:21:01.351-04:00There was absolutely no reason, either moral, or d...There was absolutely no reason, either moral, or diplomatic, or military, or geopolitical to do that. [...] there were perhaps some extenuating circumstances at the time -- like the imperative to win the war against the Axis powers.<br /><br />CRASH!Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-10182928574432887262012-09-10T21:12:47.512-04:002012-09-10T21:12:47.512-04:00I wouldn't excuse any murder, duh. But keeping...I wouldn't excuse any murder, duh. But keeping secrets in time of war is necessary, and so obviously excusable, Tecs Assange.<br />That was the question, keeping secrets, not mass murder which you're inexplicably talking about.Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-15591852200170028782012-09-10T21:10:16.787-04:002012-09-10T21:10:16.787-04:00And, to answer your previous question: Yes, Church...And, to answer your previous question: Yes, Churchill and FDR were pussies when it came to selling down the River Charly Eastern Europe at Yalta, in early 1945. There was absolutely no reason, either moral, or diplomatic, or military, or geopolitical to do that. Not only did eastern Europe pay the price for that abomination for some 45 years, but so did US throughout the Cold war, which startedTecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-87071185604124357182012-09-10T21:02:17.736-04:002012-09-10T21:02:17.736-04:00Are you trying to excuse the Katyn massacre of POW...Are you trying to excuse the Katyn massacre of POWs on account of a military operation at time of war? The moral equivalence you're drawing smacks of Pepe-thought.Tecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-89614469246910534452012-09-10T20:57:11.493-04:002012-09-10T20:57:11.493-04:00Why not advertise more fully their responsibility ...<i>Why not advertise more fully their responsibility for the Katyn massacre at the time?</i> No one would've given a damn right after WWII about 22,000 dying. Ten times that many people we vaporized with atom bombs. They weren't even POWs.Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-89734905246572072192012-09-10T20:20:49.385-04:002012-09-10T20:20:49.385-04:00From wiki:
The growing Polish-Soviet crisis was b...From wiki:<br /><br /><i>The growing Polish-Soviet crisis was beginning to threaten Western-Soviet relations at a time when the Poles' importance to the Allies, significant in the first years of the war, was beginning to fade, due to the entry into the conflict of the military and industrial giants, the Soviet Union and the United States. In retrospective review of records, both British PrimeTecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-82453747769656319142012-09-10T20:05:54.221-04:002012-09-10T20:05:54.221-04:00Getting in bed with evil is bad in and of itself, ...Getting in bed with evil is bad in and of itself, even if there were perhaps some extenuating circumstances at the time -- like the imperative to win the war against the Axis powers. Though that's not a clear cut case: what would have Stalin done if we denounced his horrible war crimes at Katyn -- stopped fighting Hitler, and given up? Realpolitik has limits, and such a monstrous crime as Tecumsehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315601589942322847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24805633.post-55703446487880510062012-09-10T17:33:12.977-04:002012-09-10T17:33:12.977-04:00Yeah, sure. We coulda kicked the shit out of Hitle...Yeah, sure. We coulda kicked the shit out of Hitler on our own.<br /><br />Or convinced the American people of the good of sleeping with evil Stalin to remove even more evil Hitler without lying and saying that Uncle Joe was really one of us.<br /><br />This cover-up was a noble lie at the time, because explaining the niceties and apparent immorality of foreign policy decisions is a great way to Mr roThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836243623753244149noreply@blogger.com