freecounterpoint: Enough Said

Saturday, November 22, 2008

Enough Said

15 comments:

Pepe le Pew said...: By victory, do you mean that democracy has taken hold in Iraq and is now spreading throughout the Middle East ? Or is this anachronic gloating simply the result of your managing to successfully return a few AQ operatives in Afghanistan back to where they were at the start of the war at a cost of close to a trillion dollars?; 11/22/2008 2:41 PM
Mr roT said...: Filkins is no Bush cheerleader and seems to think democracy is going to work in Iraq. If it does, that trillion dollars (I wonder how the Daily Kos arrived at that figure) will have bought Islam it's first and only democracy.
If you think democracy is a good thing and don't think muslims should be doomed to live in tyrannies, then you should acknowledge that this is a good thing.
I will not bother to dispute the cost, because it is very hard to determine now what the effects of an islamic democracy will be.

Some idiot in Cambridge used to say about 9/11 that we brought it on ourselves by helping the Afgh guys throw off the Soviets. I countered easily enough that the two towers might well have been worth getting rid of communism for good.

Same point here. Your only argument seems to be whether it was worth the money (and I guess lives).; 11/22/2008 3:01 PM
Pepe le Pew said...: No my main argument is that victory has been achieved only if you lower your definition of what constitutes victory. At this point, the only tangible success you have had consists in reduction of hostilities. This is as much the result of the surge as it is the payoff of iraqis who will turn back to their old ways once we cut them off.

Yeah, life & bucks. What else is there?; 11/22/2008 4:31 PM
Mr roT said...: No, Pepe, defeat is only achieved if you elevate the definition there. By your definition (democracy taking off like wildfire) WWII was lost by the West because Stalin stayed in.

My point about life and bucks is that what is being offered to Iraqis and their neighbors (at the cost of lives and bucks) is a future without dictatorship, which is worth more than money and some lives now.; 11/22/2008 4:41 PM
Pepe le Pew said...: ok what constitutes what you call victory then?; 11/22/2008 5:07 PM
Mr roT said...: I think getting a stable, reasonably decent democracy in Iraq would be a victory. It should be a country of laws, not men or strongmen. That's about it. I don't give a fuck about women's voting rights and gay marriage over there. If it inspires the Lebanese to throw out the Iranians and Syrians, that would be good, but it is not necessary for us to call the Iraq war a success.

We may quibble about the cost, but that's small in the overall scheme of things because the central issue is whether muslims can have a democracy or not. If they can, that is good as they are numerous and have mineral wealth. That they be doomed to live in dictatorships dirt poor is unjust.

The same is not true for Africa, in my opinion. Those cultures have never produced learning and the mineral wealth of Africa has always gone to local or foreign bigshots. Perhaps this will change at some point and even soon, but our priority should be on civilizing islamic countries--and they need it.

As far as victory's definition is concerned, we have a few to compare to. Our new bigbrain in foreign policy, Samantha Power, thinks there's no such thing as victory, but it is clear that the nazis are gone and Germany is no longer a police state nor a menace to its neighbors. Would that it were a little more of a menace!

Japan is a functioning parliamentary democracy exactly as MacArthur forced on them.

Japan's democracy didn't push the Chinese toward democracy but that doesn't mean we lost WWII.

I think; 11/22/2008 5:29 PM
Pepe le Pew said...: I think getting a stable, reasonably decent democracy in Iraq would be a victory

Right, but you aren't there, so what are you gloating about?; 11/22/2008 8:02 PM
Mr roT said...: What does that mean and who's gloating? Christians celebrate Christmas without thinking they are all Christ. I celebrate the 4th of July without having signed anything. I enjoy Labor Day without having given birth. So?
You think about the time hung up by your balls every Bastille Day, or is that just your wife threatening to do it to you again?; 11/22/2008 10:10 PM
Pepe le Pew said...: You are the one gloating about victory in Iraq.... Where is it?; 11/22/2008 10:13 PM
Mr roT said...: Where is what? You lose the flangeless buttplug again? Push, Mrs Le Pew! Push!

I am not gloating about any accomplishment of mine. I am happy things are calming down over there for the reasons I give above.

I am also pleased that I had faith and was right while many were wrong. That is satisfying. But it isn't gloating (to observe or think about something with triumphant and often malicious satisfaction, gratification, or delight ``gloat over an enemy's misfortune'').

I don't want ill for anyone, except al-Qaeda.; 11/22/2008 10:22 PM
Mr roT said...: Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. You are not claiming that even the restricted sense of victory is not done in Iraq. Right?

I think so. There were holdouts in the Pacific years after V-J Day as there were in Europe. So?

I am sure it is still possible for Pres Hussein to lose this one, particularly because around the globe he is considered a nonserious player.

In that sense it may be premature. Still, it seems that Gates will stay on for a year or so and no one is going to get Petraeus speaking out against him or else. We might win this one (again by my definitioon; I am not predicting Utopia).; 11/22/2008 10:32 PM
Pepe le Pew said...: JJ all I am saying is that a lower level of hostility does not constitute victory and hta your little banner thing is somewhat premature. Me entienes, cabron mas pendejo que la chingada ?; 11/23/2008 3:48 PM
Mr roT said...: No, puto de playa chorreado de mierda, because wars don't usually end in so discontinuous manner. Like I explained, pendejo hideputa, even WWII ended in a long wind-down.; 11/23/2008 4:22 PM
The Darkroom said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 11/24/2008 11:18 AM
Pepe le Pew said...: chupame'l hueco culero de mierda; 11/24/2008 11:20 AM

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