freecounterpoint: beating the madrassa to the punch

Friday, March 09, 2007

beating the madrassa to the punch

20 comments:

My Frontier Thesis said...: Universities also offer courses (often through English departments) about the bible as literature. What's the problem with that, Pepe? There are plenty of courses about the Illiad and Odyssey (which are great too), and they involve demigods and understanding why a particular social group developed a way of thinking about the world.

Don't be so anti-anthropological all the time. Hell, you'd be able to get through the course: just look at the bible using a Marxist model if you need to. Even Thomas Jefferson found it a good idea to at least read it, and he was a full-blown Enlightenment diest.; 3/09/2007 10:43 AM
Tecumseh said...: By definition, the (Marxist) Left hates Christianity -- it's their core value, everything else revolves around that. As an old Romanian saying has it, "they stay away from it as the Devil stays away from incense". So don't worry, MFT -- Pepe just follows the Party Line, like a puppy in a Pavlov experiment. Gotta be gentle and understanding -- he just can't help.; 3/09/2007 11:26 AM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Yes, there is definitely a resentment between the Vatican (Orthodox too, I'm sure) and Marxists. I was thinking Pepe could at least read the bible through a purely economic power-control lens.

In other realms, there have been insightful humanities studies done on the bible that high-light the power of metaphor. Kurt Vonnegut (arguably in Pepe's "WOT" camp) even said that John Wycliffe was by far the best authority on the English language (Vonnegut is drawing this from his translation of the bible).

I'm just amazed how those who openly pursue dumb tout themselves as the most "open-minded" and self-reflexive in the world. But whatever. It's like Pissing in the Wind, right AI? (much akin to your Romanian proverb); 3/09/2007 12:28 PM
Anonymous said...: Universities also offer courses (often through English departments) about the bible as literature. What's the problem with that, Pepe?

Is that what this is about (an elective bible as litt course) ? or is this a way to shove belief in the good lord and his ways into these yong mind?; 3/09/2007 12:50 PM
Anonymous said...: this is not about religious belief. it's about teaching the existence of something (questionable at best) to young minds without giving them the tools to make rational decisions. ie, to paraphrase ai's wording, to close their minds.; 3/09/2007 1:02 PM
Anonymous said...: Universities also offer courses (often through English departments) about the bible as literature. What's the problem with that, Pepe?
to answer directly, there is no problem with that, mft.; 3/09/2007 1:03 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Pepe said: Is that what this is about (an elective bible as litt course) ? or is this a way to shove belief in the good lord and his ways into these yong mind?

Pepe, perhaps you get a little wriled up whenever the word "bible" is mentioned, so put down the coffee, take some meds, settle down for a second, and go back and re-read the original CNN article that you posted. You'll see that the AP refers to the proposed Georgia bible courses as "literature classes."

So as not to be one-sided, I also haven't any problem with Economic, Marxist, or Adam Smith classes being offered by the humanities, either.

The ACLU had concerns about the vague language of the proposal. Here's another excerpt from the article: Some teachers might seek to include their own beliefs or be pushed by students into conversations that include religious proselytizing, Garrett said.

Is this what you're worried about, Pepe? Again, stop being so anti-anthropological all the time. These courses, ideally, would shed light on why particular social groups in the eastern Med developed a way of thinking about the world. We might be so lucky that future humanities scholars look at the way you and I (and others) were trained to understand the world from a detached, and "scientific" standpoint.

Further, the courses would offer folks like yourself a catalyst for airing your own worldview (strap-ons and all). DISCOURSE, PEOPLE. WE NEED FUCKING DISCOURSE!!!; 3/09/2007 1:37 PM
Anonymous said...: You'll see that the AP refers to the proposed Georgia bible courses as "literature classes."
yes - but this strikes me as being a sly attempt at introducing sbj through the back door. The evangelicals have already attempted to give a scientific veneer to their creationist credo with the "intelligent design" thing - if you they get sbj in through the door (sep of church & state), use the window is the modus operandi.; 3/09/2007 2:26 PM
Anonymous said...: These courses, ideally, would shed light on why particular social groups in the eastern Med developed a way of thinking about the world
i would whole-heartedly suppoort this, mft. i just don't think it's what this is about.; 3/09/2007 2:27 PM
Tecumseh said...: "or is this a way to shove belief in the good lord and his ways into these yong mind?", "to paraphrase ai's wording, to close their minds."

The planted assumption in the above is that "reading the Bible" => "close the mind", "read das Kapital" => "open the mind", or some such pinko-Frenchy BS. Phoeeeyyy, I say. If nothing else, on a purely literary and intellectual level (forget the other aspects for a second), the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and all the prophets of the Old Testament are far, far superior to the drivel of those pinko pseudo-Gods, Marx, Engels, Lenin, or whoever is the Lefty du Jour Pepe worships to.; 3/09/2007 2:52 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Pepe, you're being too heavy-handed, either for it one way or the other (but really, in all fairness, graduate schools and university train us to make strong arguments).

I'm sure in some classrooms, students will get a little more Evangelical, and in other classrooms, they might get a little anti-Evangelical.

I just can't seem to work up the energy to get as paranoid about it as you. Like I mentioned before: look at it as a catalyst for your own strap-on sodomy worldview. Otherwise you come off sounding about as crazy (or equally) as an Evangelist.; 3/09/2007 2:54 PM
Anonymous said...: straw man city here, ai - so far you're the only one thinking about marx; 3/09/2007 3:39 PM
Anonymous said...: mft - this is a blog where people go ballistic at the thought that some muslim wacko may be thinking about thinking about thinking about opening a madrassa somewhere in topeko ks, thereby causing the destruction of western civ. By the local standards, i do not think i am being paranoid.; 3/09/2007 4:26 PM
Tecumseh said...: Pepe: no offense meant, but I strongly associate militant atheism with Godless Communism. Yes, they are not the same, but the correlation is surely >0.5. Funny though how militant atheism goes all jellyfish and weak-kneed when it comes to Militant Islam, but it huffs and it puffs till it goes blue in its face when a rube somewhere reads the Bible. Oh well, what do you expect?; 3/09/2007 4:40 PM
Anonymous said...: I strongly associate militant atheism with Godless Communism
any evidence for this, ai ? i mean pretty much everyone around me is an atheist and i don't think any of them is a marxist.; 3/09/2007 5:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Funny though how militant atheism goes all jellyfish and weak-kneed when it comes to Militant Islam
this is your take on it, ai. but it only works from the standpoint that there is a serious material danger. take that perspective away and you'll understand that this is not a "jelly-fish, weak-kneed" stance.; 3/09/2007 5:03 PM
Anonymous said...: it goes blue in its face when a rube somewhere reads the Bible
again, you are commenting on your characterization - i don't give a shit who reads what (unlike the administration that wishes to have access to your library records) - i do object to early brainwashing. of any kind.; 3/09/2007 5:06 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Let's do a little hypothetical here, Pepe: if a fictional character — let's call him "Timothy McVeigh" — was talking in a local bar about blowing up a Federal building in Oklahoma City, I'd have to go talk a bit with him to figure out the severity of his proposal. In another hypothetical, if a Muslim started going on about how he was planning on detonating a dirty bomb in a New Orleans harbor, I'd also have a chat with him, or have someone have a chat with him, to understand the severity of that proposal too.

I equally get a little (mildly put) concerned when some crazy lady starts a Jesus Camp in my own North Dakota backyard (see Devils Lake), and screams to the children that they are a part of God's Army. These same children, a girl in fact, of about 11 years of age, was quoted as saying that her variation of Scream-oh Evangelical Christianity was superior to all other varieties/belief systems (including Catholocism and Orthodox and Lutherans and whatever).

All of this I find problematic, as all have an absolutist point of view, and unless we submit, they are willing to kill. So that's why my little MFT Potential Danger indicator goes off. I'm unwilling to saunter around while anyone talks about killing anyone else in the name of Allah, God, or because they have some paranoid dellusion about the need for a Revolution against the Federal Government (Lewis Farakhan included; also: don't confuse my support of the "wot" as being grounded with any type of religious campaign. It's more to spread the ideal of Jeffersonian democracy and Franklin Republicanism).

Back to the original point: fine if you're concerned about where these Historical bible courses could go, but rather than shooting it down entirely, perhaps you might propose a course that would coincide with it (eg., 19th-century German philosophy; or Charles Darwin and the HMS Beagle; or you get the idea). All of this stuff is important throughout the history and historiography of Western Civilization. To ignore any of it is an unashamed pursuit of Dumb. And in no way could I ever endorse that (especially when Jesus Camp lady is living right across the Missouri River from me).; 3/09/2007 5:08 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: By the local standards, Le Pew Who Wishes to Keep His Pepe Anonymous, you make paranoia seem like sanity.

Now, your quote: "Anonymous said...
mft - this is a blog where people go ballistic at the thought that some muslim wacko may be thinking about thinking about thinking about opening a madrassa somewhere in topeko ks, thereby causing the destruction of western civ. By the local standards, i do not think i am being paranoid."

There are madrassahs, that is muslim religious schools for "youths", young or old, all over this country. And much closer to your neck than poor ol' Topeka, Kansas. However much these are or are not advocacy centers for Islamic supremacy, Jihad, and Love of Buttery "things" it is their right to have such centers in this yet most free of societies. Just as it is your's and Chomsky's right to genuflect before Staline and pray to the Prophet Marx for the death of all Neocons and other assorted counterrevolutionary elements. Private institutions are free to rail against anything they wish.
But neither you , nor Islam, nor Christianity, nor La Raza, nor....[here be a list of indefinite length] have the right to impose your creed on the public school system, to violate the separation of church and state. Thus when Islamic institutions pressure the schools and the state to give special status for Islam denied to others, then that is a strong sign of an assault on western civilization, in particular our version of western civilization [as opposed to that gilded pile of shit that is Versailles], and in this instance against the constitution and derived laws of this nation.
To make it real earthy, so even a postmodern lyotard grasps it, there is no quarrel with having courses such as "Quran/Haditha/Sunnah as Literature and History" offered as electives in the school system. There is a huge quarrel with having the Quran, and Islam in general, taught as a "True Belief" in the REQUIRED coursework of the elementary and secondary schools [or public universities for that matter].
The first courses open the Quran to being seen simply as an object of literary and historical importance. Which means you can question the behamed out of it, dig into its historical construction, and compare the poetics of the Sura of the Cow with the Song of Solomon. In other words, you can study it in a way to make the True Believer either apoplectic or a new aficionado of the cutting qualities of damascus steel.
The second are propaganda, heavy handed at that, pure and simple.
What we currently have, in many school systems, is that propaganda. I'd be ecstatic if this "history and literature" approach to the Bible was required for the Quran as well.
Capisce, Versailles Upon Delta?; 3/09/2007 7:06 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: AA makes an interesting point. Evangelicals would be even more bitter than Pepe upon hearing that the Great State of Georgia wants to take their creed and first treat it as literature, and second put into proximity of its historical context.

Pepe, you should join the Baptists. You are alike in more ways than you have probably ever realized. Let me know how Sunday School goes this week you damned Bible Thumper!; 3/09/2007 8:23 PM

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