freecounterpoint: And then there were eight

Tuesday, November 21, 2006

And then there were eight

18 comments:

Mr roT said...: Apparently the deal worked out is that if Syria leaves Iraq alone, we'll let them do what they want in Lebanon. Probably there's an Iran in there somewhere too. This is an interesting deal. Lebanon has no oil anyway and they are infiltrated completely with Hezbollah and their sympathizers while Iraq might have a couple moderates left.; 11/21/2006 11:24 AM
Mr roT said...: I'm thinking of this of course.; 11/21/2006 11:28 AM
Tecumseh said...: "Interesting deal"? From what I can tell, Syria and Hezbollah are methodically killing any Christian politician in sight that could stay in their way. Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. But of course, in the self-flaggelating, self-gelding view of what's left of Western Civ, this is just the way it should be. Right?; 11/21/2006 11:33 AM
Mr roT said...: Ethnic cleansing is not about killing politicians. It's about killing everyone. Maybe that's coming next.

Still, that would not be the content of such a deal. A Baker-Kissinger-stinking deal would consist of selling out Lebanon for Iraq. If this includes killing some politicians, sorry.

I don't think it's very nice, but it makes sense. If the French only get up in arms when their wards (Lebanon or Saddam Hussein) are in trouble, then let them protect them on their own. We'll protect ours. By 'we' I mean democrats, not Christians, much better than how the French would define 'we'!

If you insist on framing this in religious terms, then Lebanon's beleaguered few remaining emasculated pseudochristians are more precious than all the brave victimized democratically inclined Kurds in the world.

I don't see it that way. I don't see myself as being first Christian, then American, then democrat.
I feel the importance of these concepts in the reverse order and so admire the Kurds and am sick of the weak Lebanese Druse whatevers (paid off by Israel to conduct massacres?).

It would be nice if we could save them all, but if there are priorities...; 11/21/2006 12:13 PM
Tecumseh said...: Look, I have some sympathy for this threatened minority, that's all. Seeing how their leaders are blown up to smithreens, one by one, by the Syrian KGB or whatever makes me sick to my stomach. It's all done in cold blood, with the full expectation that the West will stand idly by, and perhaps tut-tut at the most. At least, I am expressing my moral outrage, for all that it does.; 11/21/2006 12:25 PM
Mr roT said...: I am sorry for them too. I don't like realpolitik and I think the US's moral position is better when it's well, moral.
But no one believes us anyway when we say we're serious about democratizing, generally, and neither do I, so let's act cynically in our interests for awhile and see if people don't prefer us.
We crusaders? Why aren't we supporting every nickle-and-dime Christian, then?
We democrats? Then let Iraq be run by its majorities and be left alone by its neighbors.
Does it cost us something? Sure. If it costs us a Christian Lebanon proxy of Israel and Iran and gives us an Iranian Lebanon then the world can figure out what it means to be in France's protectorate and reassess their adulation for Chirac.
The chickens will have to come home to roost before the angry left figures out who the good guys are, evidently. Here there will be a glaring opportunity to see.
Sad, but History is sad.; 11/21/2006 12:55 PM
Tecumseh said...: Man, you've started sounding like Henry K (or is it James Baker) of lately. Que pasa? Where are the noble ideals of yesteryear? Or, as the Frenchie say, ou sont les neiges d'antan?; 11/21/2006 1:05 PM
Mr roT said...: Tut-tut.; 11/21/2006 1:06 PM
Mr roT said...: Come up with a better PLAN, Kerry.; 11/21/2006 1:07 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: The problem is that bunging the Lebanese to curry favor with Syria and Iran to spare the Kurds [never mind Iraq] has no hope in Hell of working. The Kurds and the Iraquis in general would just get bunged a little later.
Yanks stink at Realpolitik, and whenever we try to practice it the end result seems the destruction of any side we were purported to be on.
Realpolitik is a sick joke, and the joke is on us, and the sickness comes from the stench of the bodies of those we betrayed. Vietnam Deux? Fuck it.
It is not in our self interest, as democrats first, JJ, to agree to any "deal" where we abandon the hope for democracy, even the hope of the reasonable survival of our allies on the ground.
If you are correct about this, then I guarantee you the Kurds will NOT see this as reassuring. They will not believe, nor should they, we would not do unto them as we do unto the nonHebzollah Lebanese.
[by the way, it is NOT a Christian-Muslim divide, per se, in Lebanon. You will note that a strong ally of Gemayal is/was Jumblatt, head of the Druze Militia, and one of the few moderating forces in Islam willing to put a gun behind the thought. This is, however, definitely a divide between the forces of those who will work for or against IM. And for us to cut deals on this is then not just a decision to abandon allies to their fate, it is madness wherein sheer delusion usurps reason]; 11/21/2006 5:36 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Just got a refresher in the high German middle ages this morning, and when Innocent III went around whacking all the family of the late Frederick II because the papacy never again wanted to deal with them, that created disdain towards the papacy that, I've been told, still runs in the German blood.

Meanwhile, Syria continues to whack Lebanese gov't figures.; 11/21/2006 5:52 PM
Mr roT said...: AA, you think the Druse are muslims? I thought they were just weird. Jumblatt (what a funny name) incidentally is the son of a guy killed for some political crapola over there. This is long in the making. Link. Ally of Arafat. That's what we need! Hell with all of them Lebanese, guys. They deserve Hezbollah.; 11/21/2006 6:20 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: The Druze may be "weird", in that they are not like those sane Sunni's and Shia's?? They are Muslim, just one of those smaller sects which kept a larger proportion of their syncretic origins. Of course, for that reason, they are detested by Mecca and Qom.
Yes, in the CW they allied themselves with the Soviets, and so with the PLO of that era, and so on. Which is why, for example, in the early 80's, when Reagan sent Marines into Beirut, most of the worry of the DCers was on what Jumblatt might do. As it turned out, it was our good talking partners, the new organization founded by Khomeini, Hebzollah, which sent in a suicide trucker and blew 200+ marines to kufr hell. Jumblatt was always more rational, and moderated.
Since the late 90s, the Druze, having come to fear Syri and Iran's role in Lebanon, have worked closely with the various groups, including Israel, seeking to salvage Lebanon's descent into a triumph for expanding IM.
Of course, now you see the Kissingerian touch of giving the enemy exactly what they want as a Good Thing......
It is, for the enemy. And for nobody else. And certainly not for us.; 11/21/2006 6:58 PM
Tecumseh said...: Good history lesson, AA. As for JJs newfound Kissingerianism, well, what can I say -- a chacun son gout, I guess. I still prefer the old JJ in the Alan Alda mould, sounds more genuine. Powwww!; 11/21/2006 8:13 PM
Mr roT said...: 'Mould', AI? We so conservative we stick to archaic British spellings here?
Looks more like a gayer affectation if you ask me.; 11/21/2006 8:37 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Jay Jay, dare we Say
Mould is Bold
And Mold is gay?; 11/21/2006 8:49 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Well, it's nice to see you two gentlemen have taken this topic to that higher level of discourse.; 11/21/2006 9:14 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: MFT, we sure have. Foucault would be Loud and Proud about our here Discourse; 11/21/2006 10:28 PM

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