freecounterpoint: Straw or Man, AA?

Sunday, November 19, 2006

Straw or Man, AA?

Yes, there are some Muslims that practice FGM. FInd it in the Koran.

19 comments:

Tecumseh said...: Wjat's FGM? Map caption is too small -- care to explain what's about?; 11/19/2006 1:59 PM
Mr roT said...: Female genital mutilation. AA claims this is an Islamic practise and I deny that Islam has anything to do with it.; 11/19/2006 2:25 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: JJ, if Islam has nothing to do with it, why is it practiced only in muslim communities? And why, for example, when the guy down in Lousiana [?] got jail time for doing that crud to his daughter there were protests in Mosques around Islam, from Malaysia to the good ol USA, but nowhere outside of the Mosques? Empirics are a bitch, sure, but they are a better guide to what is going on than shutting your eyes, clicking your heels, and strolling around Oz with your favorite straw man; 11/19/2006 2:58 PM
Mr roT said...: Hmmm. What fallacy is that?; 11/19/2006 2:59 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Is it in the Quran to mutilate women? No. Is it in the Quran that women must be clad in abayas? No. Is it in the Quran that women should be killed if they are judged by the men of the household to have "dishonored" them? No. Yet all three are current practices within Islam, today and back to early accounts. They are not practices uniform in Islam, nor even along a particular orthodoxy. The abaya is enforced in many areas of Islam, but of course not all. Female mutilation and Honor Killings are nowhere the "Law of the Land", but in many places, even in "enlightened" regions such as Jordan or Turkey [or the communities here in the States and in Europe] they are understood as justified by the clerics and committed Believers, if the head of the house so desires it, for the propriety of females or the defense of family honor. Thus these acts, mutilation and murders, seem to rarely concern the authorities of the religion, except, and I mean except, when the kufr condemn it or seek to prevent or punish it here in Western lands. Then, yes, the voices are heard loud and sharp. Agreeing with the kufr, helping in preventing these practices? NO. The voices are loud in attacking the kufr for attacking these practices.
It goes back to IM, JJ. No, not every Muslim is Jihadist, and in fact the majority will never bother participating in it. But those who do participate are muslims, and more likely to be so the more they are fervent in their belief. And those who do not participate will almost never condemn Jihad, never mind seeking to stop it, and yet will join in with the damning of the kufr who choose to contend with Jihad.
Are you suggesting jihadism and IM are strawmen?; 11/19/2006 3:14 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: fallacy? JJ, surely you have a mind capable of argument.; 11/19/2006 3:15 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: The fallacy, to give it a name, is a variant of the Fallacy of Origin. That is, your fallacy. You assume that if a particular practice or custom marking Islam today is not found in the Quran, then it cannot be a practice or custom marking Islam today. That is, if it is not explicit in the original text then whatever is seen by so many lying eyes ever since cannot be believed.
I am sure you uphold the same doctrine when it comes to the christers? There ain't nothing Jesus said about roasting people for their sins, nor even going in that direction. Yet many apparently lying eyes claimed that that, in fact, is what happened in the Spanish Inquisition, run, of course, by fine members of the Society of Jesus. But, of course, JJ is consistent, and knows no such thing could ever have been the practice marking christians of that era.; 11/19/2006 3:22 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: The map is a bit small. Could you enlarge it JJ? At a glance, it has that sort of crazy Jared Diamond look to it too. Also: Diamond is the ultimate reductionist. That's why he's so popular... it's so ecological, dude.; 11/19/2006 3:43 PM
Tecumseh said...: JJ is hoisted on the petard of his own logic. I'm with AA on this. Here is what Islamic law actually says on the subject.; 11/19/2006 3:44 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: On that note, the Quranic note that is, JJ, to not seem quite so strawmanish in your upholding of strawmen, you really should give some due consideration to the Islamic Cleric's basing their teaching and understanding on the Quran AND the Hadithas/Sunnas, and that in fact most of their injunctions and prescriptions on conduct and proper practice come from the latter. After all, the Quran is not often specific as to what exactly to do [although it does have its wonderfully specific moments, as and Sura of the Cow will moo], and as the Prophet Mo is the Most Perfect of Muslims, then events from his life, accounts of his actions and thought, are the Guide to the Uncertain.
Now, Mo never says "Women must wear abayas". He does say that they must be properly covered, and not display immodesty. So what the heck does that mean? Well, as far as Islam is concerned, that means what the Clerical tradition from that time to now says it means. And the Abaya/Hijab tradition gets its "justification" from the belief that women in Saudiland at that time were pretty much cloaked[which is not historically accurate at all, but that is the Muslim Tradition, so you go argue with them]. Try to go to the mosques, in Boston, or Houston, and see how far your assertion "this is not Muslim" gets you.
Now, Mo never says "Kill your women if they diss you" Nor "If a man rapes your woman, kill her". Nor "Cut off your daughter's clitoris to keep her chaste". Yet these are now traditions within Islam. All of Islam? No, not even the Hajib/Abaya was all of Islam. But traditions long flourishing within Islam, and defended by its Clerics when attacked by the kufr? Uh huh.
So a question might be, although JJ did not ask it here, is what does Mo say about women that might make these acculturations ones that could be incorporated into Islam in this lasting manner? What sort of attitude did Mo evince, you know, in that special Mo lifestyle of his, to women?
The Hadithas here are very very informative, JJ, and even the Quran has some nice information [as to how one may treat females captured in war, or females who are kufr], and the information is quite specific. Mo rapes women, Mo kills men to get their women, Mo kills men and incidentally gets their women, Mo kills women who insult him or "anger" him, Mo enjoys nine year old girls, Mo encourages his men to not hesitate to take women for rapine. Mo also gives much talk on virgins and the "purity" of women. The modest and obedient and chaste are to be prized, and those who fail this are beyond protection. And, of course, Mo says all this pleases Allah.
So, JJ, there you are, a good muslim Imam, encountering variations in theme as the Ummah expands, and you have to make a judgement call as to what is, is not, consistent with Mo-mism. For whatever inscrutable reasons, JJ, the Imams through huge chunks of Islam in its traditional lands, found nothing inconsistent between female mutilation and Islam, or honor killings and Islam, or the turning of women into walking shrouds with Islam, this "Islam" being that as seen in the life of the Most Perfect of Muslims, Mo himself.
But you wish to go Johnny on us and chant: "If it ain't in the Quran, then in Islam u no can'?????

That's very special; 11/19/2006 3:51 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Thanks for the quick and excellent find, AI. I was about to search for some of that Imam scholarship but you have save me much time.; 11/19/2006 3:53 PM
Mr roT said...: One lousy website called 'answeringislam' using as its source an arabic-english dictionary counts as scholarship?
A companion website called answeringchristianity probably says that though pederasty predates christianity and there's no explicit mention of it in scripture, it really is integral to what christianity is about. After all it's pretty clear christ wasn't a football player.
Canada has injured you!; 11/19/2006 4:25 PM
Tecumseh said...: Anytime, AA, anytime. Let's see now how JJ tries to squirm out of this self-made jam, Houdini-like. Pop an IPA, and enjoy the show.; 11/19/2006 4:26 PM
Tecumseh said...: The show came faster than I thought. And the answer was: non-sequitur, et omnia non-sequitur. Ah, well...; 11/19/2006 4:27 PM
Tecumseh said...: JJ, how come Australia is missing from your map? And what on Earth could explain why the Aussies started practicing FGM? Maybe it has to do with the presence of kangaroos. or koalas? I can't wait to hear your learned explanation.; 11/19/2006 4:34 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: AA in B.C. said: After all, the Quran is not often specific as to what exactly to do...

Yes it is, AA. It specifically says no dogs in the Taxis, and chop off the clitoris (kidding-kidding-kidding). I'm not about to start an argument of the JJ vs. AA order -- too busy for that right now.

I am reminded of one of those neat-oh cults from the Ancient World that the Romans absorbed but quickly did away with. It had something to do with smashing and castrating one's balls between two rocks. It involved a lot of crushing and grinding. Try thinking about that without flinching. (the name of the cult escapes me, although I have it buried in my Western Civ. notes somewhere. I think it originated somewhere in Persia).

I think we all can agree, regardless of whether it's Muslim or non-Muslim, that chopping off the female clitoris is a bad idea, and the practice should be done away with. ...but alas: screaming in UCLA libraries is more important these days.; 11/19/2006 5:33 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Also, in light of the New Islamic Crazy: AA, you've been adlected to spearhead the new FreeCounterPoint basecamp in Alaska. I'm thinking Barrow, but am open to other suggestions.; 11/19/2006 5:39 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Barrow has a nice mathematical heritage, that's good. But FairBanks keeps our money honestly, which is also good. And what says "secure moorings" more assuringly than Anchorage??? Which is also good. We have choices, Brothers, choices

[may we all agree that the bain-lieus of Juneau are ruled out?]; 11/19/2006 8:40 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: I like your coastal alternatives. For a while I thought the interior of Alaska, but we'll save that for when it looks really bad. With the coastal Alaska towns, we'll at least be able to get good seafood too.; 11/19/2006 9:27 PM