Somehow this terrorist "wannabe" managed to get someone to fund him to come to this country and enroll in flight training school in Minnesota many months before 911. In which school his "progress" was marked by an enthusiasm for flight maneuver and an obvious indifference to the landing of aircraft.
After a flight instructor gets an FBI agent to take seriously his suspicions of Moussaui, the agent [Janet Rawley], meets a wall of indifference and near pewian disbelief from FBI headquarters-- but does eventually manage to get this mere "wannabe" arrested on grounds of immigration violations [not that this defiance of the joys of open borders was not an insult to all humanity, of course. The flight instructor and Janet Rawley were assuredly 'vigilantes', as Bush would say].
Moussaui is questioned over a period of weeks; as to his background, his entrance into this country, and to what purpose he was undergoing flight training. He stands out for a refusal to say anything at all [a telling sign of the wannabe if there ever was one, eh?], except that on the morning of 911 he suddenly becomes a man enthused, assuring all his fellow jailbirds watching the telly , just after announcement of a "small plane" having hit a WTC tower, that this was just the beginning and "watch what happens".
Now to the poor bourgeois mind, mired in its obsession with mere evidence and logical inference, this just might---taken altogether-- point directly to this Fine French Gentleman [FFG, pronounced as "fog", from now on] , even if he had maintained scrupulous silence ever since, and we had not uncovered his ties to Al Qaeda's operatives in France, as being much more than simply a "wannabe". It might suggest he had knowledge afore, and was being trained for a similar operation to , if not exactly so, as 911. It might suggest he , clearly by nature not a taciturn man, had some important purpose behind being taciturn prior to 911.
But that would be the bourgeois mind. And as the FFG Le Pew testifies, unbourgeois minds, lofted above the Boetian mortal dung, do not allow mere evidence and logical inference to interfere with one's pronouncements on things "not believable".
FFG, in fact, veritably piss wisdom.
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We are FFGokked. This whole charade is just unbelievable.
Of course, we should have treated the Frenchman (and the other AQ boys we caught) as what they are: enemy combattants, caught without uniform, as spies and saboteurs. What's the problem: summary trial and a firing squad -- have we forgotten how to do that in time of war? Evidently, yes.
And AQ (and their amen chorus) will ullulate will glee, for good reason. Hasta la vista, baby.
NR makes basically the same case, but it takes much longer, and it's more ornate. (They also spell combattant the English way, instead of the correct, French way, mais passons.)
Interesting that the MSM turn this into a test of competest for the Bush administration. Where did that come from?
Nice elaborate tirade AA. I got a little lost near the first bourgeois bit but, notwithstanding the self-righteous and sneering tone, it sounds like you made your case that moussaoui is a meanie.
To this fine observation, I think we all concur. This is precisely why he got a life term.
The jurors saw it that way too
Good find, Pepe, but bit player is not the question. The point is that he knew the big thing was going to happen and positively concealed what he knew. That makes him an accessory to about 2800 counts of murder. Probably merits the death penalty. I was ambivalent about his getting that and am not going all nuts about the result. The martyrdom thing seems tome irrelevant since we're making them by the barrelfull every day. I think the BBC article that AI put up sets the right tone. The jurors didn't do what the government told them to and instead handed out what they thought to be just.
That sounds like a strength, not a weakness as wacko Peggy tries to argue.
the crucial thing is the meaning of "knowing":
I know there will be an earthquake in california soon but this isn't information that can be acted upon. Likewise, moussaoui (and the FBI if i understood correctly) "knew" planes would be used to hit monuments, but it is unclear whether he knew exactly when and where. If not, he really didn't know shit.
Now we all know that most of the hijackers didn't know until the last minute about the 9/11 operation. The question is then whether moussaoui was privy to the same level of info as, say, Atta. OBL being arguably a fairly smart cookie I am doubtful he would have shared that level of intell with someone as obviously mentally unstable as moussaoui. I submit instead that moussaoui was going to be one of the clueless assistant hijackers.
Your argument, or your attempt thereof, Le Pew, is bunk. The point is not that Moussaui was on trial for being a "meanie" [although it is admirable of you to bump him from the mere "wannabe" category to an actual meanie], but that he had knowledge of the attacks coming and deliberately hid this knowledge in order to abet their success. Said success being the death of nearly 3,000 [and, of course, a war].
You would excuse his responsibility on this by claiming that the exact timing, perhaps even targets, the killers were to be assigned to was surely knowledge given not too early in the game. But he did know the general idea, yes? He, after all, knew the method of the attack [or do you think his flight training in Minnesota was part of his 5 step Life Improvement plan?]. And from all evidence of his behavior on the morning of 911 he knew enough about the attacks to know that the first reports of a "small plane" hitting the WTC tower was only the start [or do you consider "watch what happens" his prelude to a striptease?].
The point is; this accomplice to mass murder deseved death. And, yes, he was an accomplice to mass murder. And, yes, he was no mere "wannabe",[as you had claimed] nor even a "meanie", he was part of the Al-Qaeda team that sought precisely that scale of destruction here in the USA.Although, I admit, you did choose not to believe that. So, having held firmly to your faith, why would I be so bourgeois, after all, to bring up evidence and the possibility of reasoning upon it?
As for you getting "a little lost", I will refrain from pointing out how you might find your way. After all, we would not want to disillusion you of your assurance that the FFG have a certain droite de seigneur to the way one sneer.
I am sure he knew the general idea AA. But so did the FBI so it is doubtful that his divulging whatever it is that he knew would have changed the outcome one bit: not only did he not know when and where, but there was nothing new to the intell.
However, he did know something and was severely punished for not sharing.
As far as the morning of the attacks, once they happened he might have knowh what the scenario was but that doesn't mean he knew before hand when and where they would happen.
Finally you say he deserved death as if there was some divine obligation to execute him. Apparently even the jurors didn't think so - what don't you drop it ?
Uh, Le Pew, before I "drop it", before we discuss your conviction on the infallibility of jurors,and the wisdom of forbearance before those who make it a cackling gleeful point to observe that our forbearance is only to their benefit, perhaps you could put aside that sneer [although I grant you a Gallic sneer has a certain finery which no mere bourgeois dare aspire to] and repeat what you just said. Are you saying that before 911 the FBI knew there was an Al Qaeda operation to commandeer aircraft and fly them into targets in this country? Are you saying, as you said, that Moussaui would have been telling them nothing crucial by fessing up to being here in the States to train for a suicide mission with commercial aircraft, and that he was not alone in doing so?
Can you tell us the source of this information?
AA - i will dig if need be but moussaoui's defense all along was that whatever tidbits of info moussaoui had, the fbi also had and failed repeatedly to act on. specifically that there was an AQ plot to crash aircraft in buildings. although was no one knew when or where. i am under the impression that this is common knowledge - is that no so ?
That is not so. And I contend it is not even knowledge, uncommon or otherwise...
So, are you asserting that had Moussaui had spoken, and told all, before 911, nothing essentially new would have been known by the FBI?
Are you, by any chance, an acolyte of DemocraticUndeground.org? There, too, much that is not known is commonly known.
Interesting argument going on in thread -- but look, guys, this is not getting us anywhere. We must establish here some principles on how to treat enemy combatants caught without uniform. Since time immemorial, there was no question about what to do in such a situation. This new thing -- transfer what is essentially a miltary matter to an OJ-like circus -- is absolutely mind-boggling to me.
OK, forget for a moment now about Moussaoui -- what's done is done, and we can go blue in the face and still achieve zilch. What about then the big fish -- say, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. This guy was a real mastermind behind the 9/11 attack on our country. Should we have a Moussaoui-type circus with him, too? And for sure, there will be sophisticated sophists making the case he was not really that big a fish, and aw shucks, what's the big deal, and surely he had a nasty childhood, etc, etc. I can see it coming from a mile.
This is an entirely different matter as this one isn't a flunky.
Which is precisely the reason why moussaoui life should be spared: sentencing has to be commensurate with the crime. If (assuming for the sake of this argument that there is room for the death penalty in a civilized society) the mastermind is to be executed, lesser conspirators have to receive a lesser sentence.
"Lesser conspirators HAVE TO receive a lesser sentence"??
Uh, why? Why, if the crime committed by Droogo is grave enough that, in its own right, it might well warrant Punishment N, would you instead allow only punishment N-K, where K is the number of levels of conspiracy Droogo is lesser than the Capo who oversees the whole shebang?
Gibreel came to you one night with this pronunciamento divino? Or do you have any reasons to explain how you arrived at this similarity of the lessers?
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