freecounterpoint: 2005 statistics

Monday, October 30, 2006

2005 statistics

*9193 cars burnt
*2,921 arrests
*21 nights of riots

Wow, it looks like France is losing the riot war. Pepe?

24 comments:

The Darkroom said...: mft - it's an integration issue. If there is one thing the US does well is to discourage ghetto-isation by fostering assimilation (except in the South which is replete with housing projects in which even the police don't dare to venture). France parks its immigrants in abject poverty far where the eye can't see them : this is the problem.; 10/30/2006 8:49 AM
Mr roT said...: On the other hand, we in the US integrate in the opposite direction too: All these sons of senators blaring rap out of their entry-level Ferraris and ragin' against the man do look even stupider than the putrescent black-beret-wearing French philosophe smoking his Gauloises and raging against capitalism.
Apartheid is only bad for one side, we should remember.; 10/30/2006 9:42 AM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Pepe, this issue was raised before, and at the time you made the same assertion you make now. And, at the time, I asked you a question [ paraphrasing "what makes the Muslims so different from other immigrants"]which you answered in conformity with your finest intellectual traditions. That is, you simply didn't answer at all, and proceeded on a new issue as if it was what had been discussed all along. So, since you have resurrected the "it is but the poverty imposed on immigrants" canard, allow me to reemphasize the question.
Throughout the 60s to 80s, before EU admission, large numbers of Portuguese immigrated to France. Portugal's economy and standard of living was the lowest in noncommunist Europe, and behind such northern african luminaries such as Algiers and Morrocco. So, yes, these were economic migrants, were poor bastards, were shunted into crowded and inconspicuous tenements, and were put promptly to work "cleaning the toilets" of the French. I cannot recall a single one I've met from this Diaspora who recommended the French as a warm and compassionate people. OK, so far so good. Their version and the Pepe version are in sync.......So, guy, the Portuguese Riots that shook La France are legendary, yes? Their Barrios became remarkable for their "youthful" spirit and their rambunctious manner of earning proper respect,eh?. And the same is true, of course, of all those East Europeans who earlier, and later, flooded into France. Disrespect and severe economic disparity drove them into creating roving bands intent on arson, assault, rape, murder, with new recruits ever pouring out of their religious schools chanting "God is Great". All to the smiles of their priests and the local socialist mayors......Right, Pepe?
If France parks its immigrants in abject poverty then that is a problem. A problem which would be interesting to explore in terms of what you mean by "abject poverty", "park", and why France would foster immiigration only to park immigrants in such. But it is NOT "the problem" at to the Intifada the countrymen you left behind are enjoying. That is, your claim as to its cause cannot tell us why the "youths" are so overwhelmingly Muslim, and why other shat upon immigrant populations did not behave as these "youths".
Ah, but then that would require at least thinking about the ideological components of Islam, and navigating however slightly its political currents, and essaying just how integral to Islam is Militant. And that would be Racism, natch.; 10/30/2006 12:33 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: They do look stupider, JJ, but appearances are deceiving.; 10/30/2006 12:34 PM
The Darkroom said...: aa - is your seeming inability at making an argument without interjecting at hominems an indication of your sense that your statements don't hold water on their own?; 10/30/2006 1:13 PM
The Darkroom said...: To answer your question, there are three major differences - the portuguese immigrants were rather small in numbers when compared to those from the maghreb and hence couldn't regroup in large numbers as easily.

Second, the economy of the 60s and early 70s was in much better shape.

Third, islamist radicals fester on appalling social conditions and. You seem to imply that the economic background plays no role in these occurences but (and I realize this will come as a shock to you) I assure you that the many now well-paid muslim berkeley grads I met are immune to radical islamic propaganda and not particularly interested in burning buses, committing suicide or blowing up airplanes.; 10/30/2006 1:22 PM
The Darkroom said...: How come there aren't hundreds of various Sioux, Mandan, Hidatsa or Arikara tribes blowing themselves and Anglo-American institutions up with 'em in all of Dakota?

they know what you guys are capable of.; 10/30/2006 3:23 PM
Tecumseh said...: Second, the economy of the 60s and early 70s was in much better shape.

Perhaps that was due to a oh-so-slightly to the right (in the direction of the dreaded Anglo-Saxon "liberalism", that is) economic direction during that period (de Gaulle, Pompidou, Giscard), sandwiched between out-and-out pinko-lefty governments (4th Republic, then Mitterand)? Natch!

islamist radicals fester on appalling social conditions

Mierda di toro! This is just marxist histoires de bonnes femmes (old hag tales, that is), nothing remotely resembling an intellectually honest analysis. Do lefties ever stop for even a nanosecond and think about the bs they peddle, on automatic pilot, ever since Karlie told them what to say, way back when in 1848?; 10/30/2006 4:01 PM
The Darkroom said...: This is just marxist histoires de bonnes femmes
care to substantiate ?

In other words, can you think of an example of a rich and educated community in which radical islamists are having a strong pull? I submit instead that it is only in ghettos that islamists find resonnance. This is not to say that wealthy islamist leaders don't exist: OBL is the first of them but I don't think you'll find wealthy, well-adjusted troops in his wake.; 10/30/2006 4:06 PM
The Darkroom said...: Perhaps that was due to a oh-so-slightly to the right (in the direction of the dreaded Anglo-Saxon "liberalism", that is) economic direction during that period (de Gaulle, Pompidou, Giscard)

... or perhaps it was prior to 1973 (premier choc petrolier) or is that a marxist thing to believe ?; 10/30/2006 4:08 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: they know what you guys are capable of... can you think of an example of a rich and educated community in which radical islamists are having a strong pull?

First, there is a strong sense of togetherness amongst the contemporary Anglo- and Native-American worlds, at least as I experience it in Dakota. I'd put an American (Native or Anglo) up against a jihadist any day of the week. In fact, your French Jesuits did such a good job with the conversion that the Native Americans in these parts are more Catholic now than ever. I'm told by a Lakota friend that he really enjoys the forgiveness aspect of Christianity, and he doesn't hold resentment towards your countrymen. Isn't that interesting, Pepe.; 10/30/2006 4:44 PM
The Darkroom said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 10/30/2006 5:15 PM
The Darkroom said...: It's amazing - you gringos created what largely amounted to a genocide and us frogs get shit for it. Hand'em another bottle: it's working.; 10/30/2006 6:06 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Pepe, if "ad hominem" was Made Flesh in the Big Easy, He would be You.
Of course, once you have finished pouring excrement on the peasants, you jump up, raise the flag of good sportsmanship, and demand that no retaliation in kind be permitted. All the while using these bleats to mask the sad fact that you never get around to answering the questions raised.
Ad Hominem ad hominem, you are Marvelous, Pepe'.; 10/30/2006 8:59 PM
The Darkroom said...: Pepe, if "ad hominem" was Made Flesh in the Big Easy, He would be You.
How's that, aa? Do you hear me refer incessantly to "aa-ian" arguments ? Do I incessantly sneer at you in half of my posts ?

While there is no question that I feel vindicated by the disaster in iraq, that I relish the upcoming trouncing of republicans in congress, and believe that you are under the most morally and financially corrupt administration in US history, I harbor no personal animosity to you or others on the board.; 10/30/2006 9:25 PM
The Darkroom said...: ok, jj's an exception.; 10/30/2006 9:26 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Ah, so then you answered.
First, the Portuguese immigrants were highly concentrated, numbered at their peak almost 10% of the Portuguese population, and were treated like unadulterated shit. Including being cut off from most of the social services currently presented to immigrants [although that may have been well to their benefit]. They were also, of course, accompanied by large numbers of other poorer Europeans.
Second, the economy was in better shape? If you mean that the Portuguese had toilets available for the cleaning absolutely correct. If you mean that they had better chances for economic gain and more social support than the muslim immigrants [who, by the way, were coeval with the Portuguese in moving to France] then that is a merry little lie.
Third, if you think that I seem to imply that economic conditions play NO role, then I think you can't read. I made a point of emphasizing your "THE problem" with my "A problem". Economic conditions play some role, the question is to understand this "some". The problem you have is that you simply cannot understand, with your "economics are paramount" spiel, why all that bad economic stuff should have such different affect upon populatons whose social position differs but along religious/cultural lines.
As for those "Apalling" social conditions, they be appalling fo sho, and the sight of those skeletal jihadists bravely bashing women while obviously so close to starvation, and persistently studying and working to improve their minds even as the Kapitalist Koppers seek to burn their books and deny them the right to education, is enough to make a Stone Buddha of Bhaniyama weep.
As for your riff on "I've known Berkeley Muslims, and they don't riot" . Which seems to be interlaced with an "I've known Berkeley Muslims, and I bet you haven't" bing badda boom. It is all so true. I have not met a Berkeley Muslim leading the Youths of France on the front lines of Intifada Paree. But I have met more than enough Berkeley [and UCLA, and Stanford, and Duke, and Georgetown, and London, and Manchester and... here be a host of fine institutes of the higher miseducation] who have been as fiercely supportive of todays "youth culture" as they are personal cowards in presenting themselves "the brains" behind the phenomenon. In particular, the more religious, the more Believing, the western educated Muslims I've met have been, the more likely they are to express strong support for the Saps of Youth, and the more likely to express in terms of direct action [forming and leading organizations to support such, fund such, and recruit activists on the ground].
But then this would be differentiating between varieties of "Muslim", even if it is just the obvious initial step of separating those for whom the religion is little more than cultural background from those who actually are religious. And that would mean actually thinking and studying about strains within Islam, seeking to determine which are benevolent, versus those which are somewhat malignant, versus those which are virulently malignant. It would mean, for example, not leaving questions at the departmental chit-chat level but taking the risk of both making friendship and then running the risk of destroying friendship, in order to get to really know people, and give them the time and chance to reveal their true thoughts. It would mean, as Salman Rushdie put it, you would test any bonds forged with the "fire" of questions asked "simply, and in declarative sentences".
Perhaps Pepe has been misjudged, and he has asked an Imam, for example, out of many possible examples, which he would rather be "A Jew in Saudi Arabia, or a Saudi in Israel". But I wager a Cintra Tawny versus any French wine that Pepe has never ever done it. And if sitting at a dinner table, halal of course, before an Imam, the very thought of asking such would be be a cause of his own private fear and trembling.
Never mind, of course, Pepe accepting my earlier challenge of going to a Mosque to try such, never mind the hallowed halls of Harvard Ummah, the Al-Azhar University.; 10/30/2006 9:35 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Uh, Pepe, if you harbor personal animosity to "Ricains, and scoff at Ricain soldiers, and mock our Ricain dead, ya know what.... It is personal.; 10/30/2006 9:36 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: The French aren't Gringos?? Is that what Maximilien believed?; 10/30/2006 9:37 PM
The Darkroom said...: Uh, Pepe, if you harbor personal animosity to "Ricains, and scoff at Ricain soldiers, and mock our Ricain dead, ya know what.... It is personal.

aa - this display of patriotism is truly noble but you shouldn't let it interfere with your ability to reason.; 10/30/2006 10:08 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: I don't. It is simply to point out that you have been personal from the git go. And so, when I hear you declaim on the Gentle Marquess of Queensbury, I have reasons for the ensuing laughter.; 10/30/2006 10:10 PM
The Darkroom said...: you're the one amalgamating political rhetoric with personal feelings here. Not me.; 10/30/2006 10:14 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: Sweet of you to think so. .But amalgamic technology, however long mastered by the French, is yet beyond the ken of the simple fishers we Portuguese be.; 10/30/2006 10:37 PM
The Darkroom said...: i didn't know that but moussaoui didn't fit that profile; 10/31/2006 2:01 PM