freecounterpoint: freecounterpoint

Saturday, April 29, 2006

freecounterpoint

An interesting effort - if
they can stick to it.

19 comments:

Tecumseh said...: Stick to what? The Communist Manifesto?; 4/30/2006 12:52 AM
Mr roT said...: This should really work just great. Like the Soviet Union did, economically.

I really wish them the best. It would be a horrible shame to see all those Perez and Sanchez stuck in gulags after 20 centuries of nonsense from the Catholic Church.

Good luck guys. You're a couple centuries late on the political economic philosophy, though.

Give fascism a try too, while you're at it.; 4/30/2006 3:05 AM
The Darkroom said...: Most of the continent has given fascism a try, jj - with US blessing I might add.; 4/30/2006 5:19 PM
Tecumseh said...: My naive (coulterian?) recollection is that the US (& co) defeated fascism in WWII, while the French -- well, let's not dwell on that. So why would the US turn around and bless fascism in the Americas? Sounds counterintuitive to me.; 4/30/2006 5:33 PM
The Darkroom said...: I think it is rather undisputed that American foreign policy asit applied to South and Central America until the laste 80s has been to support ot at the very least accommodate itself of pretty much any dictatorship as long as they weren't of the commie variety.

Hence Videla, Pinochet, Somoza in Nicaragua, Stroessner in Paraguay, Ríos Montt in Guatemala, etc...

Or are you arguing that these weren't fascists?; 4/30/2006 6:12 PM
The Darkroom said...: I almost forgot El Salvador and La Matanza. Gawd bless America.; 4/30/2006 6:18 PM
Tecumseh said...: Accomodate is one thing, bless another. We even accomodated with Stalin in WWII to defeat fascism -- doesn't mean the US blessed the Soviets. Raison d'Etat and all that jazz.

By the way, those various little Caudillos you list were at least not bothering their neighbors. The only one that tried an Anschluss of sorts was Galtieri (curiously missing from the above list). The Iron Lady kicked his ass. No accomodation with Fascism there. As usual, it's les Anglo-Saxons who did the fighting, leaving the pontificating to others.; 4/30/2006 6:27 PM
The Darkroom said...: i would argue that pino and somoza were blessed - wouldn't you ? I have to research videla.; 4/30/2006 6:42 PM
Arelcao Akleos said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 4/30/2006 9:25 PM
Tecumseh said...: Good analysis, AA. And thanks for reminding us of the way free markets were introduced in Chile, post-Allende. In this case, there were indeed some blessings from America -- more precisely, from Milton Friedmans and the Chicago Boys -- that helped make that transition a success story, pace the fidelistas.; 4/30/2006 9:38 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Participants have vowed to work towards the eradication of illiteracy and the expansion of employment.

This sounds good in theory...; 4/30/2006 9:59 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: Also: Pepe (for my own personal benefit), I'll likely have a strong Classical Liberal/Libertarian tendency to disagree with your interpretations and conclusions, but please keep submitting stories when you have time.

This is generating some good debate, and we rarely hear from the south these days.; 5/01/2006 11:22 AM
The Darkroom said...: This from wikipedia on Videla - I don't know how you want to call it but it ain't too sexy:

Relationship with the United States

At first, the United States government was willing to maintain normal diplomatic relations with Argentina, though transcripts show U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and the U.S. ambassador to Argentina in conflict over how the new regime should be treated, with Kissinger preferring to remain friendly based on anti-Communist interests despite talk of human rights abuses. This changed in 1977 with the inauguration of President Jimmy Carter, who implemented a strict stance against human rights abuses even when dealing with friendly governments. U.S.-Argentine relations remained lukewarm at best until Ronald Reagan became president in 1981. His administration sought the assistance of the Argentinean intelligence services in training the Contras for guerrilla warfare against the new Sandinista government in Nicaragua. Because of this, Videla maintained a relatively friendly relationship with the U.S. under the Reagan administration, though the junta later fell out of favor with the U.S. over the Falklands War after Videla had stepped down.
[edit]; 5/01/2006 7:31 PM
Tecumseh said...: Realpolitik at its best. In the early forties, the main enemies of the US were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, so FDR entered into an alliance of convenience with Stalin (who turned around and pulled a fast one at Yalta, but I digress).

In the early eighties, the main adversary of the US was the Soviet Union. So Reagan sought some informal alliances to counter the expansionism of the Soviets. Good -- it worked, and die Mauer came down a few years later, and the hammer and sickle came down from the Kremlin spire a couple of more years after that.

We are all the better for all that -- including the Russians. Only the Politburo nostalgics in the Ivory Tower or the Left Bank cafes (and perhaps the occasional oddball Dear Leader) would cast a tear for the defunct Evil Empire, or second-guess Ronnie on how he went about winning the Cold War. I for one say, hip hip hooray, let's win one more time for the Gipper.; 5/01/2006 8:11 PM
The Darkroom said...: I've always wondered why some people credit the gipper for the fall of the S.U., which I see more as an internal development. Do you care to expand on how US policy brought that on?; 5/01/2006 9:54 PM
My Frontier Thesis said...: It's more-likely a long duration of U.S. policy than just the gipper. If I remember right, one of Kennedy's platforms was accusing Ike of not spending enough on defense in an attempts to check Kruschev... then the Soviet response: something about a shoe being beaten on a podium, and then some sort of public apology to Alexander Solzhenitsyn.; 5/02/2006 1:33 AM
Tecumseh said...: Of course, I'm over-simplifying. It was not just Reagan -- the policy of containment started with Mr. X and the Truman Admin, and ended with Bush P`ere. And there were many other factors -- starting with the internal contradictions of the Communist system, Gorbachev's blunders (some sincere), the restiveness in the satellite countries, the war in Afghanistan, etc, etc. But, if we are to personalize this, three people stand out: the Polish Pope, Maggie Thatcher, and Ronnie. Switching gears from the disastrous Carter policies, starting the rollback in Grenada, Nicaragua, etc,, and spending the Reds into red with Star Wars, etc, contributed mightily into sending the Evil Empire on the ash-heap of history, where it justly belongs.; 5/02/2006 2:07 AM
My Frontier Thesis said...: I agree with your points, AI, but Kennedy (and as you mentioned, Truman) were important in getting things rolling.

I'm thinking of the catalyst for the space race, or Kennedy freaking out when he was made aware of the Soviet's first satellite. (I know you know this, so I don't mean to sound like a pedant) Star Wars was a culmination of early and mid-twentieth-century science and politics (not political science), from Edward Teller's work on the a-bomb to his eventual support of Star Wars.

What can I say: I'm a long-duration kind-a guy.; 5/02/2006 1:46 PM
Tecumseh said...: Yes, JFK did some of the heavy lifting in the Cold War, though the Cuban missile crisis was too close for comfort. Just hanging in there, and slogging it out in Korea and Vietnam, was worth the while, even if at the time it looked rather bad -- this bought time, and, in the end, the commies blinked first.

But that was then, and this is now. Not sure this generation is still prepared to pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. What do you think?; 5/02/2006 10:37 PM